Curse

Rexion · Mar 31, 2008, 09:01 PM // 21:01

downloading a "KEE-UTE GFX GUYS!" game right now. (cute graphics). Just something to do for a month while I take a break or so? I donno. lol

I'm probably take a few breaks over the next 2 years... or just be lucky and get into beta. The only problem with that would be the fact that I'd have played some of GW2 and know what to expect. I wouldn't get the full experience of everyone being new to the game like I did a few years ago.

so to sum it all up... switching off with this little, cutesy game I'm downloading now.

Bryant Again · Apr 01, 2008, 01:10 AM // 01:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balan Makki

It's the concept of "Amazing Stats" that seems to be absent in GW1. Being that just about anything "Amazing" stat-wise can be acquired in a few evenings solo.

Having the itemization and stat cap easy to reach isn't a complete great decision, since it somewhat hurts character development - which is one of the big reasons people play RPGs. Note "RPG", doesn't apply only to MMOs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balan Makki

...The same way you are assuming that Stats in GW2 will somehow represent more than they do in GW1.

I'm unsure how you came to this assumption. I'm saying that I would believe it unfair for a player to receive any advantage at all in his leveling just because he grinded a lot of titles for his HoM.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balan Makki

So yes, it's very possible that GW1 will get a huge boost to in playership when Arena Net anounces all the benifits, advantages, stats-free content offered to loyal players, who purchase GW2. Even though such content could be accessible by new players, given time.

It's not a benefit or advantage if it just makes you look different, which is what I'm hoping for.

Longasc · Apr 01, 2008, 01:34 AM // 01:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balan Makki

Apologies for being vague in previous post.

It's the concept of "Amazing Stats" that seems to be absent in GW1. Being that just about anything "Amazing" stat-wise can be acquired in a few evenings solo.

But ANet does not seem to follow their initial vision anymore.

ANet told us in the GW2 interview that they examine an unlimited level system with a very flat power curve.
We got titles and skills tied in effectivity to the title, sometimes the benefits of higher rank in the title are not just a little bit more, but considerable.

After GWEN I rather got the impression they try to re-invent the wheel, i.e. the standard MMO, rather than progressing the idea of a gaming world that does not suffer from the power creep and other issues that comes with levelling and itemization sooner or later.

Shayne Hawke · Apr 01, 2008, 02:02 AM // 02:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinger314

At best, it's 2 years until GW2. Beta is slated to be available at the end of '08 (which is highly unlikely; remember, this is software development, and this is ArenaNet, master of bad ETAs and delays.). Even then, it'll be atleast a year of Open/Closed beta (GW1 took 2 years!).

Stopped reading right there. I'm actually pretty relieved now that I don't have a lot of pressure to get to GWAMM before GW2 comes out. Sounds like I have a lot of time now.

As for the real question to the player base, it's hard for me to believe that the large population of players will stick around for two years, assuming there's no extra content to be added any time soon. If no new content is unveiled between now and then, I can see many players leaving to lurk in the shadows, either coming back only when GW2 finally arrives, or fading away and moving to a different game.

Zonzai · Apr 01, 2008, 08:21 AM // 08:21

Um... yes?

Wait, is this a trick question?

~ Dan ~ · Apr 01, 2008, 10:12 AM // 10:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tosha

Probably not. But the players who started PvP later in the game (like me :P) will be eager for a fresh start, seeing how hard it is to get into PvP now. I know I will buy GW2 as soon as it comes out, and start PvPing the very same day, just to get a decent chance

If you want a PvP game, Age of Conan will always be better than GW(2) because of the unique combat system. And judging by how Anet handled PvP, i don't see how anyone could take it seriously.

So, that leaves you with a PvE game. Well, frankly, the difficulty of PvE in GW1 was a joke. The same company is producing GW2, so i don't expect anything much better. The Pver's will still be crying when Anet nerfs for the benefit of PvP - so just go find yourself a game that's pure focus is PvE, imo.

taiwf · Apr 01, 2008, 11:50 AM // 11:50

i doubt anet can retain many player in Asian consider that they did to taiwan and hong kong player.

Esan · Apr 01, 2008, 12:22 PM // 12:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shayne Hawke

Stopped reading right there. I'm actually pretty relieved now that I don't have a lot of pressure to get to GWAMM before GW2 comes out.

Except you cannot achieve GWAMM alone. You need other players for at least parts of the Guardian and Master of the North titles. Better get them out of the way now while the players haven't yet started ditching the game in droves.

IslandHermet · Apr 01, 2008, 01:29 PM // 13:29

If they keep up the trend of (all staff working on the next big project) I can see alot of people not getting GW2.

How do we know that once GW2 comes out Anet will not just move on to the next project and let a small number of people continue to run GW1 and 2.

But if the game comes out and is just bad I will not get it. but hey we will have to wait and see.

If GW2 is a flop I will keep playing GW1, and even if GW2 is a good game I will keep playing GW1.

IslandHermet · Apr 01, 2008, 01:36 PM // 13:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by taiwf

i doubt anet can retain many player in Asian consider that they did to taiwan and hong kong player.

is that (considering what) or (consider that they)

because Anet did nothing (taiwan and japan) have these things called internet police (they want to control all information I think they are scared someone might learn something)

Anet has a contract with these police (its a very very strict contract that took way to long to get into place which limits some things the asian player base can do).

Anet is not at fault and they did not renew the contract (most likley because the taiwan and japan player base is not that large) why spend money to renew a contract and work with government officials if the player base is so small and the sales market is so small.

If and when the asian people finaly stand up for themselves (nothing will change and the internet will continue to be regulated for them)

Balan Makki · Apr 01, 2008, 03:59 PM // 15:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Having the itemization and stat cap easy to reach isn't a complete great decision, since it somewhat hurts character development - which is one of the big reasons people play RPGs. Note "RPG", doesn't apply only to MMOs.

There are many fans that actually like the non-grind, non-stat/leveling qualities of GW1. With optional "Title" grind if they feel so inclined. They also like being able to develop a character sans Stats and Power Creep; yes, it is possible to have character development without stats, but then:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Me Again

We choose to see, hear and repeat only what suites our own opinion. For "Stat" addicts, opinions will always favor the fix.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant

I'm saying that I would believe it unfair for a player to receive any advantage at all in his leveling just because he grinded a lot of titles for his HoM.

If GW2 is functionally a Stat/Leveling Grindfest, then yes, I completely agree. HoM inheritance should be swept under the rug--no benefits for loyal players. If it becomes World of Everstats then any amount grind and stat gain needs to be constantly managed, especially in PvP (See WoW). For PvE it really does not matter one little bit, it's a mute point with such robust instancing. It could be Arena Net will try to c-can levels as we know them -- the final nail in the coffin of the Evercrack Grindfests.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant

It's not a benefit or advantage if it just makes you look different, which is what I'm hoping for.

I agree, and believe GW2 should apply this theme to the fundamental structure of the entire game system. Balancing the way GW1 has balanced, everyone starts at a base, and can add modifiers, via Runes, Insignias, Skills, Title Rank (Yes Titles.), Profession, Profession Attributes(points), Armor type, Marital Status, Donations to Charity, Eye Color, or whatever. I see nothing wrong with giving players who choose to develop their characters, via titles and HoM, benefits; especially if Guild Wars 2 is as robust, re-playable and Balanced as GW1.

As with GW1, benefits are nominal, comparatively speaking (See WoW for comparison), thus GW2 could dramatically benefit GW1 sales by promising loyal players something tangible. Such increases in sales would trickle into more funding for GW2, thus a more polished game release.

Marketing 101, a win win for fans and developers.

Bryant Again · Apr 01, 2008, 05:19 PM // 17:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balan Makki

There are many fans that actually like the non-grind, non-stat/leveling qualities of GW1. With optional "Title" grind if they feel so inclined. They also like being able to develop a character sans Stats and Power Creep; yes, it is possible to have character development without stats, but then...

Yes there are many fans that like the lack of importance on stats and character development, but how many fans we cannot say. We don't know how many of those 5 million copies sold belonged to people who played for a couple days, saw the lack of emphasis on character development, and just quit playing forever.

As far as we know, this number could actually be pretty huge. People don't play MMOs for the stats, people play RPGs for the stats. And not just the stats, but they like to see how everything plays out. It's a more tactical and complex experience for many when you can actually see how things play out: you can see how this guy resisted this, how you missed this guy, why this guy hit you so hard, why you're unable to use this sword, why this sword is kicking awesome ass, etc. etc. (All of these examples have been taken from DnD, not any MMOs).

When all this character development is optional and unrequired, there's little incentive to do any of it. It would be like starting Baldur's Gate II at the max level with max equipment. Where's the fun in that?

All this could very well be why ANet has stated that GW2 will have a much different direction, how there may be an endless level cap and the like. As you've mentioned, it's been an official statement that "much has changed with GW2 since we first announced it", meaning there could be an easy level cap with little meaningful character development and have everyone with max level gear. Would that be a good idea? Most likely not. The first preview of GW2 was in PC Gamer, a very popular computer gaming magazine. A lot of people will have read the article and may've gotten their hopes up after seeing the large list of features - and because of this, ANet has the potential to upset a lot of people. It's similar to announcing a large-scale strategy war game, only to announce a few months later that they're turning it into SimCity 4000. While that example is rather drastic, you can see why a lot of people would be disappointed.

I'd only be concerned with high levels and level gaps if there wasn't going to be a sidekick system in GW2.

Note again that I am not talking about stats and the like in MMOs but in that of RPGs in general.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balan Makki

We choose to see, hear and repeat only what suites our own opinion. For "Stat" addicts, opinions will always favor the fix.

You do know that when using the term "stat addicts" you're labeling everyone who plays Dungeon and Dragons, Neverwinter Nights, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect, Oblivion, Final Fantasy, and pretty much every single RPG created ever? You may call this that "moldy old sock" syndrom, but this is a large reason why people play RPGs (thanks for pointing that out, Esan).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balan Makki

...especially if Guild Wars 2 is as robust, re-playable and Balanced as GW1.

If you want to advocate for balance in GW, be sure not to mention Ursan Blessing. Or Paragons. Or PvE skills.

Esan · Apr 01, 2008, 05:32 PM // 17:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

You do know that when using the term "stat addicts" you're labeling everyone who plays Dungeon and Dragons, Neverwinter Nights, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect, Oblivion, Final Fantasy, and pretty much every single RPG created ever? You may call this that "moldy old sock" syndrom, but this is why people play RPGs.

That's almost a fractally wrong statement.

You are confusing RPG players with munchkins. Needless to say, not all people play RPGs as a min-max optimization problem.

IlikeGW · Apr 01, 2008, 05:49 PM // 17:49

Most realistically, GW will take an overfranchising "hit" each time a true new version of the game comes out. This means playerbase will be splintered, and they'll start to reach a maximum number of "buy everything" players fairly soon, with the rest of the players staying on earlier versions such as playing GW1 and 2, when 3 is out. So every fast sequel to this game inherently loses some original audience. Whether people want Anet to fail or not at this point, the truth is they probably have enough marketing advantage to milk the Guild Wars line for 10 years at least. But will they lose some of the playerbase between sequels, absolutely, it's inevitable. If I had to guess right now I'd say less than 50% of current GW owners are going to GW2, and maybe over time a bit more.

Bryant Again · Apr 01, 2008, 06:00 PM // 18:00

I agree, IlikeGW. I really don't think that the "original playerbases" are kept in consideration as much as catching new audiences.

Fay Vert · Apr 01, 2008, 06:13 PM // 18:13

Some seem to think that picking up a player base of millions is easy. It isn't its very rare, any company that ignores its existing millions playerbase is stupid. ANet make some incredibly dumb decisions from time to time, but they aren't stupid, they want to keep the current player base as much as possible.

Shame about all the really stupid decisions regarding that though (grind wars/loot nerf/everythign else nerf)

Stoneys Rock · Apr 01, 2008, 06:19 PM // 18:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinger314

At best, it's 2 years until GW2. Beta is slated to be available at the end of '08 (which is highly unlikely; remember, this is software development, and this is ArenaNet, master of bad ETAs and delays.). Even then, it'll be atleast a year of Open/Closed beta (GW1 took 2 years!). And that's assuming nothing goes wrong.

And during this time, Gaile has strongly asserted that all teams are focused on GW2, and GW1 will receive little attention and no content.

Be realistic. Will players really continue to stick with GW for such a long period without any new content?

The economy is fracturing, PvE is being obsolete by Ursanway and PvE skills, PvP is stagnant due to few (and passive) skill balances. Sure, it may be acceptable to some, but for 2 years, can they really bear it?

And all of that ignores any potential killer apps which may appear during that time and drag away even more players.

No, this is not a doomsday thread. It's realistic.

What will happen:
person: wow gw1 was so fun ah well gw2 is not coming out for ages..
*ages later*
omg gw2! I remember how fun the first one was *yoink*

Balan Makki · Apr 01, 2008, 06:30 PM // 18:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

People don't play MMOs for the stats, people play RPGs for the stats. And not just the stats, but they like to see how everything plays out. It's a more tactical and complex experience for many when you can actually see how things play out: you can see how this guy resisted this, how you missed this guy, why this guy hit you so hard, why you're unable to use this sword, why this sword is kicking awesome ass, etc. etc. (All of these examples have been taken from DnD, not any MMOs).

We've had this discussion before. Can a character progress without Stats progression??? I claim they can. I'm hoping Arena Net builds on what they've already started. As for playing tactical complexity, you don't need stats for that. You only have to look at the creature type or your opponent; what spell/skill they're casting, what armor they're wearing, weapon they're wielding. Stats stink. For Guild Wars 2 to become a stat heavy MMO/RPG would, in fact, do more harm to the current fan-base, than some conceptual "No Stats? I Quit!" group you seem to have conjured.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant

When all this character development is optional and unrequired, there's little incentive to do any of it.

Disagree. (See all the players working on their HoM.) You don't need to do it if you don't want to. I choose to play through all content, if I'm getting buffs from titles, then I'm enjoying character development as a fringe benefit of playing the game. Rank 7 in Norm title just happened as an incidental outcome of having fun. Do I use Ursan? No. Do I grind? Never. Not challenging for me, but if I wanted to, it's nice to have an option. Optional content is what has made GW1 great, and what will make GW2 even greater.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant

All this could very well be why ANet has stated that GW2 will have a much different direction, how there may be an endless level cap and the like. As you've mentioned, it's been an official statement that "much has changed with GW2 since we first announced it" . . .I'd only be concerned with high levels and level gaps if there wasn't going to be a sidekick system in GW2. Note again that I am not talking about stats and the like in MMOs but in that of RPGs in general.

MMO and RPG means the same thing in this discussion--Guild Wars and Stat progression, and would it be wise to give loyal players some sort of benefit in GW2. Levels may be nothing more than attribute/skill points, that can be spent in current primary profession. Characters may be able to choose multiple primary professions, thus as new professions are added, character level could be considered endless, being that professions are endless. You don't need stats for that, and you get some solid RPG/MMO character progression.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant

You do know that when using the term "stat addicts" you're labeling everyone who plays Dungeon and Dragons, Neverwinter Nights, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect, Oblivion, Final Fantasy, and pretty much every single RPG created ever? You may call this that "moldy old sock" syndrome, but this is why people play RPGs.

Not true. This is why You play RPGs. Here, read this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Me Again

We choose to see, hear and repeat only what suites our own opinion. For "Stat" addicts, opinions will always favor the fix.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant

If you want to advocate for balance in GW, be sure not to mention Ursan Blessing. Or Paragons. Or PvE skills.

Balance means nothing in PvE, it only applies to PvP. Unbalance PvE is far more popular (See WoW, play WoW). Arena Net knows this and the numbers prove the point. Arena Net could give players a myriad of buffs, and benefits, and it would mean nothing to other PvE players, playing in their own private instance. This is especially true if there is No Stat Progression per traditional MMO/RPG. No stat progression means no unbalancing advantages.

'Course we could both be wrong. We're both speculating heavily. Will just have to wait and see.

Bryant Again · Apr 02, 2008, 03:49 PM // 15:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balan Makki

We've had this discussion before. Can a character progress without Stats progression? I claim they can.

Of course they can. Now, is it desirable? We don't know, because we can't look at the Guild Wars player logs. We can only look at the "copies sold" figure, and that says little.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balan Makki

Disagree. (See all the players working on their HoM.)

See the *number* of people working on their HoM. Hell, see the number of people playing Guild wars. Again, we don't know.

I'm not saying it "kills" incentive, just that it could lessen it. It's also difficult to say anything concrete because "incentive" is as subjective as "grind". But I think it would be safe to say that you would see more people aim for a larger hall if it were announced that the the "benefits" you gained from it in GW2 were something that made the game easier.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balan Makki

Levels may be nothing more than attribute/skill points, that can be spent in current primary profession. Characters may be able to choose multiple primary professions, thus as new professions are added, character level could be considered endless, being that professions are endless.

"Nothing more"? Gaining more attribute points through leveling is pretty much what I've been advocating for. That is the Stats system in Guild Wars I've been referring to ever since I've began talking about it. Having and endless level cap, and earning attribute points for each level, is what I would consider awesome (granted I'd like to see character development that's a little deeper, but that's just me). Given the announced side-kick feature, I see very little reason to be against it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balan Makki

Not true. This is why you play RPGs.

Given how a "stats" system has existed for a very large number of years now in virtually every RPG, including Guild Wars, I think it's safe to say that it's a highly cherished and (considered by many) fundamental feature. If it wasn't so well-liked we'd have seen it die right after the first Final Fantasy.

Yes, it's not true that "this is the only reason people play RPGs", hence why I edited my comment. But having levels, attribute, and stat points are indeed largely enjoyed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balan Makki

Balance means nothing in PvE, it only applies to PvP. Unbalance PvE is far more popular (See WoW, play WoW).

So if ANet made a totally broken skill that was PvE only, which killed all enemies at once and gave you five billion health, it'd be totally fine since it's PvE? Okay.

And I can't really say there's a whole lot of imbalance in groups in WoW: my favorite and most successful Heroic run included an Enhancement Shaman, Ret Paladin, Resto Druid, Druid Tank, and an Affliction Warlock. Not to mention our raids have been progression very happily with a wide assortment of classes, all the way from an Arms War to a Balance Druid.

metallidevils · Apr 02, 2008, 07:38 PM // 19:38

There's no guarantee that it's at best 2 years away. I don't think it'd be terribly shocking if it came out next summer.